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I'm completely OK with the Supreme Court ruling on prayer in public school. If there are any forum members who are NOT OK with it, I think it could be interesting and beneficial to discuss it. And so far I've seen NO better internet forum in which to have such a discussion in a candid, balanced, yet CIVIL manner as this one. Any takers?
Hey Mike,
Which of the following are you referring to?
Tennesse's school prayer ban?
Abington School District v. Schempp (1963) which banned Bible study in public classrooms?
Or:
SANTA FE INDEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICT V. DOE
In a 6-3 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2000 that student-led, student-initiated prayer at football games violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
LEE V. WEISMAN
The U.S. Supreme Court in 1992 ruled that a prayer delivered by a rabbi at a graduation ceremony also violated the Establishment Clause.
Read the Forum Rules
"When I entered Republican politics during an earlier period of malaise, in the late seventies and early eighties, the movement got most of the big questions -- crime, inflation, the Cold War -- right. This time, the party is getting the big questions disastrously wrong."
"In the aftershock of 2008, large numbers of Americans feel exploited and abused. Rather than workable solutions, my party is offering low taxes for the currently rich and high spending for the currently old, to be followed by who-knows-what and who-the-hell-cares. This isn't conservatism; it's a going-out-of-business sale for the baby-boom generation."
- David Frum, former speech writer for George W. Bush
"This is just ridiculous. I never thought as an economist I would have to spend so much time doing political analysis."
- Diane Swonk, chief economist at Mesirow Financial
Engle vs. Vitale (1962) was the basis of where my head was at the moment, although I didn't intend to dissect any particular case. There were many (and at various judicial levels) but I'm thinking mostly about the prohibition of officially sanctioned, or teacher-lead prayer, etc. The subsequent cases enlarge or refine the issue from there, I think. So, I'm taking it all as a whole, really.
Generally, I'd have to agree with you. I think it would be academically interesting to teach about religion in school, unfortunately, the people who are advocating for this are going for proselytizing and not teaching. I think a lot of people are against that.
I wonder what people think about allowing school prayer during graduation and football games. I have seen support for that, even in ole' liberal New York.
Read the Forum Rules
"When I entered Republican politics during an earlier period of malaise, in the late seventies and early eighties, the movement got most of the big questions -- crime, inflation, the Cold War -- right. This time, the party is getting the big questions disastrously wrong."
"In the aftershock of 2008, large numbers of Americans feel exploited and abused. Rather than workable solutions, my party is offering low taxes for the currently rich and high spending for the currently old, to be followed by who-knows-what and who-the-hell-cares. This isn't conservatism; it's a going-out-of-business sale for the baby-boom generation."
- David Frum, former speech writer for George W. Bush
"This is just ridiculous. I never thought as an economist I would have to spend so much time doing political analysis."
- Diane Swonk, chief economist at Mesirow Financial
My off the cuff thoughts are that there ought to be no problem in ALLOWING prayer. REQUIRING it would be another matter entirely, and so when the words "officially sanctioned" come into the mix, I begin to get wary. For me personally, the unfortunate truth is this: in the country I grew up in, it was possible for students to participate in a brief prayer at a school event without it being a big deal. It was just something that was done, and then it was over, and no one thought anything of it. But today the parents on both sides have turned it into this big massive "thing". 1 student is atheist/muslim/budhist/etc, so the other 27 should not be allowed to pray, OR we were founded a Christian nation so all of our public life should involve Christian prayer, whether you want it to or not. Truth is, the majority of the students probably don't give a rip one way or the other...the fight is all with the adults.
At any rate, I guess the short answer for me is...prayer during graduation and football games : sure. And if you are atheist and don't want to pray, then don't.
I generally disagree with the supreme courts activist asertions, period. That the court has exceed it's constitutional boundries in wretched excess and in practically every instance to the the detrement of ethicall and moral postitions lets down the intent of the founding fathers. I would happily take the con position re: the courts anticonstitional descisions.
It's true that in an elementary school environment some of the kids probably don't care on the same level that the adults care. They don't pay conscious attention unless the differences in prayer are more than subtle. But they DO pick up on differences among themselves and even small differences are made to be the basis of taunts and bullying. But junior and high school students become much more aware and the religious training they receive at home asserts itself with positive and negative results. I can offer multiple examples of religious discrimination by children and against children upon request, and I think it's reasonable and appropriate for public school to be structured for the benefit of ALL children in terms of focus upon what public school is for in the first place.
Like RestoreReason (I think) I attended elementary school where "official prayer" did occur even after the 1963 decision. The majority of the children belonged to a dominant religious denomination, but even then I could sense the rumblings among kids whose parents taught them varying doctrines. And there were a lot of children in the dominant denomnation, sadly, who for some strange reason picked up the notion that they shouldn't play with the children of some other religions. Now where would that come from, I wonder. I'm not trying to go off on a tangent--I think that behavor is a component that lies within the roots of the whole issue.
The kids shouldn't be made to engage in any religious activity, or prevented from doing so in free time. I see no problem with the courts occasionally stepping in to protect both sides of that basic principle. I think comparative religion and history of religion should be compulsory subjects at younger ages, just as an important part of a well rounded education (which as a happy side effect will tend to produce atheists).
Isn't praying at high school games and graduation proselytizing? If people are praying for victory in a football game, I'd actually say that proselytizing would actually be more noble than invoking God for a stupid game. Proselytizing is not and should not be allowed in formal school functions (i.e. sports games). What is the point of praying at graduation? It kind of seems to be in the same league as gay parades, just flaunting ones beliefs in public.
Read the Forum Rules
"When I entered Republican politics during an earlier period of malaise, in the late seventies and early eighties, the movement got most of the big questions -- crime, inflation, the Cold War -- right. This time, the party is getting the big questions disastrously wrong."
"In the aftershock of 2008, large numbers of Americans feel exploited and abused. Rather than workable solutions, my party is offering low taxes for the currently rich and high spending for the currently old, to be followed by who-knows-what and who-the-hell-cares. This isn't conservatism; it's a going-out-of-business sale for the baby-boom generation."
- David Frum, former speech writer for George W. Bush
"This is just ridiculous. I never thought as an economist I would have to spend so much time doing political analysis."
- Diane Swonk, chief economist at Mesirow Financial
I guess I see quite a big difference between offering up a quick prayer before a game or a graduation ceremony, and actively proselytizing. So long as a prayer is not forced/coerced on non-believers, what is the harm in those who do believe praying? I'm probably trying to walk a fine line, but I just don't have a problem with one person or group saying a prayer together so long as they are not trying to force anyone into it who does not want to participate for whatever reason.
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