What the Palestinians Need to do: Surrender, Surrender, Surrender

[margot]

You never addressed my question about why you are so adamant that Israel has no right to exist. Jewish people have a historic claim to that land. The state of Israel wasn't the first Israel. Israel is mentioned in the bible (I think--I was a Catholic before going secular so I don't know the bible lol). So nobody "stole" anything. If this is your attitude then why aren't you saying the same thing for the Muslim states? I view this hatred toward Israel as wholly unreasonable. Maybe I am missing something.

Palestinians are an amalgamation of people who have lived in the area of Syria-Palestine and the Levant for 5,000 years.

Many are descended from Jewish farmers who remained on the land after the first and second Jews rebellions against Rome.

The Palestinians have been treated very badly by European refugees since the 1920s.... and it was unnecessary.

[Cicero]

I agree with you OP. Palestinians should surrender. But, that's about where the agreements end.

First, Israel was formed by the U.N. which carved a piece of land out for them which was formerly under British control. If we want to blame anyone for stealing then by all means, let's send the British PM and the UN's Secretary-General letters to scold them for past decisions, not the "thieves" of Israel.

Once established, Israel went through multiple wars, known as the Arab-Israeli wars. IMO, if you can go through hell to keep the dirt mound you sit on, then you've earned your stay.

As it stands today, Israel is a sovereign nation and there's no going back unless they're obliterated which seems unlikely (thank God, literally).

Thanks Brits and UN for making the mess, not Israel.

[W.E.B. Du Bois]

I agree with you OP. Palestinians should surrender. But, that's about where the agreements end.

First, Israel was formed by the U.N. which carved a piece of land out for them which was formerly under British control. If we want to blame anyone for stealing then by all means, let's send the British PM and the UN's Secretary-General letters to scold them for past decisions, not the "thieves" of Israel.

Well to say that the land was "formerly under British control" conveniently leaves out about 2,000 years of history when the land was under control of various empires but still inhabited by the same Arabic people.

Blaming the British and the UN makes no sense, since it is Israel which occupies and expands the lands and thus obviously are the first parties responsible for those acts.

Once established, Israel went through multiple wars, known as the Arab-Israeli wars. IMO, if you can go through hell to keep the dirt mound you sit on, then you've earned your stay.

As it stands today, Israel is a sovereign nation and there's no going back unless they're obliterated which seems unlikely (thank God, literally).

Thanks Brits and UN for making the mess, not Israel.

Your argument is a might makes right argument. I disagree with that philosophy. Right makes right.

[Cicero]

Well to say that the land was "formerly under British control" conveniently leaves out about 2,000 years of history when the land was under control of various empires but still inhabited by the same Arabic people.

Blaming the British and the UN makes no sense, since it is Israel which occupies and expands the lands and thus obviously are the first parties responsible for those acts.



Your argument is a might makes right argument. I disagree with that philosophy. Right makes right.

I apologize. I was a bit spirited when writing the reply. Still, I think Israel should remain.

And perhaps I am naive or it is just a part of being an American, but why can't Israel be shared by both?

Is it too hard to live together? Is there really much that hate? If so, I can't say I'd blame Israel if they sealed up their borders and just traded with the rest of the world and avoid their neighbors.

As for the actual topic of this thread: the Palestinians should probably stop their skirmishes, bombs, etc. but I don't think Israel believes them to be the largest of threats with their sights on Iran's nuke program.

Also, I know that Israel has done questionable things to protect themselves, but I don't think that they would deliberately destroy Mecca and the Muslim holy sites just to spite their Islamists enemies.

[W.E.B. Du Bois]

I apologize. I was a bit spirited when writing the reply.

That's a nice gesture, but not quite necessary. Nothing wrong with being spirited. It's all about the forum rules here. If one wants to call Obama a piece of shit or Romney an ass pirate, that's fine, so long as one can handle ones comment being called worthless, etc.

http://politicalforum.net/showthread.php?3-Forum-Rules

Still, I think Israel should remain.

Well I think it's fair to say that we have major differences of opinion on Israel. Not quite 180 degrees, but quite different. Ideally, I would like to see the end of Israel as a nation-state. Most of the people can stay where they are, but I would like to see the nation eliminated, merged with the West Bank and re-created as Palestine. As one might gather from what I've written, I see Israel as a nation-state as fundamentally illegitimate and evil.

And perhaps I am naive or it is just a part of being an American, but why can't Israel be shared by both?

Is it too hard to live together? Is there really much that hate? If so, I can't say I'd blame Israel if they sealed up their borders and just traded with the rest of the world and avoid their neighbors.

Well what if the US was invaded by China 200 years from now, and due to whatever our problems were (insane military debacles) the US lost about 50% of its land to China. Then China wanted to bargain about whether the US should be allowed to exist and whether the US gets to keep 50% or 35% of its land. Most people do not want to have their land stolen, and especially with the outrageous way that Israel is currently doing it.

Israel is actually sealing up their borders for the most part with the wall they are building. Of course they are building the wall on someone else's land, which is a perfect example of Israel's history as a state.

As for the actual topic of this thread: the Palestinians should probably stop their skirmishes, bombs, etc. but I don't think Israel believes them to be the largest of threats with their sights on Iran's nuke program.

Also, I know that Israel has done questionable things to protect themselves, but I don't think that they would deliberately destroy Mecca and the Muslim holy sites just to spite their Islamists enemies.

I think Israel would really hurt Muslims real bad in the case of Muslims launching nukes at Israel or overwhelming them with conventional tanks and aircraft. Bye-bye Damascus/Cairo/Tehran/Mecca/Medina. I would not put that past Israel at all.

With regards to the Palestinians, Israel has a plan, continue to take their land until they are little more than a handful of ghettos surrounded by Israel and enclosed in concrete walls.

The Palestinians would do well to do what most people cannot: acknowledge defeat to an evil nation that has stolen their land.


WEB

[Cicero]

Well I think it's fair to say that we have major differences of opinion on Israel. Not quite 180 degrees, but quite different. Ideally, I would like to see the end of Israel as a nation-state. Most of the people can stay where they are, but I would like to see the nation eliminated, merged with the West Bank and re-created as Palestine. As one might gather from what I've written, I see Israel as a nation-state as fundamentally illegitimate and evil.



Well what if the US was invaded by China 200 years from now, and due to whatever our problems were (insane military debacles) the US lost about 50% of its land to China. Then China wanted to bargain about whether the US should be allowed to exist and whether the US gets to keep 50% or 35% of its land. Most people do not want to have their land stolen, and especially with the outrageous way that Israel is currently doing it.

Israel is actually sealing up their borders for the most part with the wall they are building. Of course they are building the wall on someone else's land, which is a perfect example of Israel's history as a state.



I think Israel would really hurt Muslims real bad in the case of Muslims launching nukes at Israel or overwhelming them with conventional tanks and aircraft. Bye-bye Damascus/Cairo/Tehran/Mecca/Medina. I would not put that past Israel at all.

With regards to the Palestinians, Israel has a plan, continue to take their land until they are little more than a handful of ghettos surrounded by Israel and enclosed in concrete walls.

The Palestinians would do well to do what most people cannot: acknowledge defeat to an evil nation that has stolen their land.


WEB

To the first part of the quote: I will give you that Israel's "occupation" could be seen as evil (personally, I think it's just), but the people aren't evil and wish for annihilation of people who disagree with them. I believe they will destroy anyone who means to threaten them (which could be Iran, depending how seriously they take the situation), but it's not the Palestinians as most the killings on their side are done by independent militants. Which brings me to my second point.

I'd like to improve my previous statements (not changing my opinion, just clarifying). I don't think Israel wouldn't destroy Islamic capitals, but I was saying they wouldn't destroy them because of one nation. In other words, they'd only destroy Mecca is the Saudis went to war with them which seems unlikely. Israel is not above destroying their enemies (which they have a right to, or any nation for that matter, if provoked), but imo they are above destroying cities in another country then they fighting against.

As for the middle section about "If China occupied the US." The key difference is that BOTH Jews and Muslims believe that the land is theirs. China has no claim to the US as we're the first and (so far) the only nation that's sat here. Secondly, China has no reason to want this land, unless it's just for the heck of it, while the Palestinians and Jews both have reasons to be on the land because it ties to their religions (and Christianity for that matter).

[W.E.B. Du Bois]

To the first part of the quote: I will give you that Israel's "occupation" could be seen as evil (personally, I think it's just), but the people aren't evil and wish for annihilation of people who disagree with them. I believe they will destroy anyone who means to threaten them (which could be Iran, depending how seriously they take the situation), but it's not the Palestinians as most the killings on their side are done by independent militants. Which brings me to my second point.

Israel and the Israelis are not evil in that they wish the annihilation of the Palestinians, but they are evil in that they stole their land. What's worse is that even now at the very moment of this discussion, Israel is still stealing more Palestinian land.

I'd like to improve my previous statements (not changing my opinion, just clarifying). I don't think Israel wouldn't destroy Islamic capitals, but I was saying they wouldn't destroy them because of one nation. In other words, they'd only destroy Mecca is the Saudis went to war with them which seems unlikely. Israel is not above destroying their enemies (which they have a right to, or any nation for that matter, if provoked), but imo they are above destroying cities in another country then they fighting against.

I wouldn't put it past them that they would destroy Mecca just out of spite even if Saudi Arabia remained neutral in a fight between Israel and other Arab nations. Given Israel's treatment of Palestinians and Lebanese, I wouldn't put it past them.

As for the middle section about "If China occupied the US." The key difference is that BOTH Jews and Muslims believe that the land is theirs. China has no claim to the US as we're the first and (so far) the only nation that's sat here. Secondly, China has no reason to want this land, unless it's just for the heck of it, while the Palestinians and Jews both have reasons to be on the land because it ties to their religions (and Christianity for that matter).

This is not the point. The fact that Jews believe Israel is theirs and Muslims believe the land is theirs means nothing. The land IS the Arabs; what they believe is not the point. Second, China has a reason to want this land as all nations have a reason to want more land. Third, none of this is the point which is that stealing people's land is wrong and Americans wouldn't like it if a more powerful nation stole land from the country the way Israel has stolen vast amounts of land from Palestine.

[Cicero]

Israel and the Israelis are not evil in that they wish the annihilation of the Palestinians, but they are evil in that they stole their land.

I think you misread what I posted. The above statement is almost exactly what I posted, but in a different form. I'm just making sure we're on the same page with what I said.

As for the rest of the post: I will call the argument relating to whether or not Israel would destroy Muslim holy sites as finished. We have both given our opinions and it seems that we won't be swaying each other, after all it's only speculation.

I still believe that both have equal claim to the land. The statement "the land is the Arabs," does not back itself up. If you could however provide information on why you believe in the statement, then I could see from your perspective, but atm I am unconvinced.

[W.E.B. Du Bois]

I think you misread what I posted. The above statement is almost exactly what I posted, but in a different form. I'm just making sure we're on the same page with what I said.

My comment accurately addresses and corrects the focus of your comment. You wrote:

"I will give you that Israel's "occupation" could be seen as evil (personally, I think it's just), but the people aren't evil and wish for annihilation of people who disagree with them. "

My reply is accurate in that it pushes to the side an argument you argue against, but which I do not make (that Israelis want to annihilate the Palestinians) and reasserts my actual argument: the Israelis are evil for stealing the Palestinians land.

As for the rest of the post: I will call the argument relating to whether or not Israel would destroy Muslim holy sites as finished. We have both given our opinions and it seems that we won't be swaying each other, after all it's only speculation.

I still believe that both have equal claim to the land. The statement "the land is the Arabs," does not back itself up. If you could however provide information on why you believe in the statement, then I could see from your perspective, but atm I am unconvinced.

Basic historical facts show that the land belongs to the Palestinians. Beginning at the time of the Egyptians enslaving the Jews, they took the Jews back to Egypt. During that time Palestinians lived in modern day Israel. After the Jews escaped, they came back and slaughtered the Palestinians. Then years later, they were conquered and dispersed by the Roman Empire. For about 2,000 years after that, the Palestinians lived in Israel. Then in the late 20th century Jews came back to the land, culminating in them once again taking control of the land, moving into the area and not allowing the Palestinians to return to their own homes after they fled the fighting. So the land belong to the Palestinians and Israel stole it back then and continues to steal more of it today.