Military Option for Toppling Ghadafi

[W.E.B. Du Bois]

I just want to point out how easy it would be to militarily topple Ghadaffi. There are risks for the US to giving out weapons to anyone who wants to fight, but if we were to do that, Ghadafi would definitely be on a certain path out.

Already one half of the country is liberated. Army, air force and naval units, in addition to the interior minister, diplomats and ambassadors, as well as a city 10 miles away from the capital have all defected to the anti-Ghadafi protesters or refused to follow orders. The country is small with just 6 million people, most of whom oppose Ghadafi.

Untrained poorly equipped forces are easy prey to hand-held weapons. In WWII, a simple farmer from Russia killed 225 German Wehrmarct soldiers in Stalingrad including 11 snipers.

He killed 32 soldiers with just an 1891 rifle:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/M91.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Zaytsev

AT-4 light/anti-tank bazooka

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/AT4_2REI_1.jpg/510px-AT4_2REI_1.jpg

Obsolete LAW bazooka (good for destroying entrenched positions i.e. bunkers)

http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/news2/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/WindowsLiveWriter/DeepFireM72A2_C923/DF-M72MET-DT1-L2.jpg

Stinger anti-aircraft missile

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger_03.jpg


Stinger missile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyrDh2K7b8M

The State Department and CIA really need to think hard about how to setup a democracy in Libya after Ghadafi is gone. Libya has no national institutions except for Ghadafi, so we really need long term solutions and some bold leadership. I think Obama is waiting until the ferry with US citizens on it leaves Libya, but even now, we should be putting diplomats in Eastern and Southern Libya and even Northern Libya to find out who are the leaders and start making plans to hold national elections and drafting a constitution in the aftermath.

I just cannot overemphasize how just a few hand-held weapons can neutralize any offensive by Ghadafi. If Ghadafi really starts to get out of hand, drop in hunting rifles and machine guns. In an urban environment, military forces and or death squads will be quickly killed by those weapons.

[FLOMAN]

While I agree there are enough reasons for Ghadafi to disappear we unfortunately have a president who has and will fail to make a strong stand against him. His speech was late and weak.
You are correct when judging the power of a people armed with small weapons.I believe that it is a matter of a short time before the dictator is out.The stronger the words our president makes against him the more his people will believe they will have foreign support.We should be careful what we wish for ,however as this kind of chaous is exactly what the muslum brotherhood and radical muslums want. Their hope is that it spreads throughout the world.
I just want to point out how easy it would be to militarily topple Ghadaffi. There are risks for the US to giving out weapons to anyone who wants to fight, but if we were to do that, Ghadafi would definitely be on a certain path out.

Already one half of the country is liberated. Army, air force and naval units, in addition to the interior minister, diplomats and ambassadors, as well as a city 10 miles away from the capital have all defected to the anti-Ghadafi protesters or refused to follow orders. The country is small with just 6 million people, most of whom oppose Ghadafi.

Untrained poorly equipped forces are easy prey to hand-held weapons. In WWII, a simple farmer from Russia killed 225 German Wehrmarct soldiers in Stalingrad including 11 snipers.

He killed 32 soldiers with just an 1891 rifle:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/M91.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Zaytsev

AT-4 light/anti-tank bazooka

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/AT4_2REI_1.jpg/510px-AT4_2REI_1.jpg

Obsolete LAW bazooka (good for destroying entrenched positions i.e. bunkers)

http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/news2/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/WindowsLiveWriter/DeepFireM72A2_C923/DF-M72MET-DT1-L2.jpg

Stinger anti-aircraft missile

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger_03.jpg


Stinger missile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyrDh2K7b8M

The State Department and CIA really need to think hard about how to setup a democracy in Libya after Ghadafi is gone. Libya has no national institutions except for Ghadafi, so we really need long term solutions and some bold leadership. I think Obama is waiting until the ferry with US citizens on it leaves Libya, but even now, we should be putting diplomats in Eastern and Southern Libya and even Northern Libya to find out who are the leaders and start making plans to hold national elections and drafting a constitution in the aftermath.

I just cannot overemphasize how just a few hand-held weapons can neutralize any offensive by Ghadafi. If Ghadafi really starts to get out of hand, drop in hunting rifles and machine guns. In an urban environment, military forces and or death squads will be quickly killed by those weapons.

[W.E.B. Du Bois]

While I agree there are enough reasons for Ghadafi to disappear we unfortunately have a president who has and will fail to make a strong stand against him. His speech was late and weak.
You are correct when judging the power of a people armed with small weapons.I believe that it is a matter of a short time before the dictator is out.The stronger the words our president makes against him the more his people will believe they will have foreign support.We should be careful what we wish for ,however as this kind of chaous is exactly what the muslum brotherhood and radical muslums want. Their hope is that it spreads throughout the world.

Welcome to the forum, Floman.

I really have to disagree with a lot of what you say. First, your criticism of President Obama is not fair. As even a former Bush administration official Fran Townsend has said, there are several hundred American citizens sitting on a boat in a Libyan harbor trying to leave but who have been prevented from doing so by bad weather (70mph winds I believe). She says that this is the reason that Obama has not come out more forcefully against Ghadafi because they would then be vulnerable to attack. I agree with her.

Second, I really think it is not a good idea to fear the Muslim Brotherhood here for several reasons. First, it is not right to automatically assume that everytime a country that is mostly Muslim becomes a democracy that the Muslim Brotherhood or Al Qaeda or some terrorist/jihadist group will take over. Second, supporting dictators actually helps radical Islamists. The Ayatollah and the current Iranian regime was born of a Stalinist Western-backed dictator who crushed all the other moderate forces and all that was left was the Islammists. The same thing was happening with Egypt. The only opposition party left after Mubarak suppressed everyone was the Islammic Brotherhood. Continued support of dictators, only increases the strength of radical Islammists.

[dave fagan]

I think we should wait until we know who the leadership/driving force is behind the protesters. Let's find out what it is that the people really want. I hadn't heard of starvation/oppression in Libya. This seeems to be a loosely bound desert people with tribal allegiances. Sounds like Afghanistan. Energy will manipulate events to Corporate advantage. Us will manipulate events to geopolitical advantage. As will Russia, China and the Euro Nations. If every group decides to arm their own allies, there will be chaos and lots of death. I would rather see Qaddafi survive and instigate reforms for reasons of stability.

[dave fagan]

Two important links for background

< http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/crimes/24-02-2011/116999-Libya_the_rest_of_the_story-0/ >
< http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/24-02-2011/117000-libya_surface-0/ >

I don't see my edits above so I will state again that you cannot find truth about Qaddafi, Chavez or Castro in USA media. If you read these two links, understanding is likely.

[West Michigan]

My two cents... let the Middle East settle their own disputes. Hasn't anyone learned that WE don't belong there, its not OUR fight? Sheeze! "IF" all the Bleeding Hearts in America would keep their politically driven thoughts to themselve and let our Military actually WIN a war... sure send our military out and let them have at it... I'm sure it would all be over in possibly a matter of hours, depending. But... no... we Americans want to be armchair quarterbacks and "limit" the rules of engagement among other things. Tell you what, next time any of you feel froggy and want to kick some butt... have your wife tie your hands behind your back and shackle your feet with an 18 to 22 inch chain.... then go out and peck your fight but don't forget to give your opponent a baseball bat first. Let us all know how that works out for you. ;)

[FLOMAN]

I don't apoligize for my crticism Obama.Unfair or not (Bush got plenty) he had better be thick-skinned enough to take it.He waited too long on the Iranian issue ,was milk toast on egypt and waited over a week to say a word on Lybia. Stronger words would go
a long way in region wrought with conflict. We have aregion in chaous and the only true democracy is in danger and for intents alone.

On the Muslum brotherhood ,have you seen or heard the some of their leaders.They are waiting for world chaous.You begin by economics ,cut supplies of essentials by making them too exspensive or unavailable.And justify bloody revolts as being for democracy and freedom but it is nothing of the sort they desire. Making Islam the dominant world religion is their goal. These are real radicals and you better fear them.I know Muslums that do. Sharia law and freedom cannot coexist and are only part of the problem.

A side note: I like Obama personally ,don't give a damn what color he is, and wouldn't mind having a beer and shooting some hoops with him.He is hovever inept as president.QUOTE=W.E.B. Du Bois;2825]Welcome to the forum, Floman.

I really have to disagree with a lot of what you say. First, your criticism of President Obama is not fair. As even a former Bush administration official Fran Townsend has said, there are several hundred American citizens sitting on a boat in a Libyan harbor trying to leave but who have been prevented from doing so by bad weather (70mph winds I believe). She says that this is the reason that Obama has not come out more forcefully against Ghadafi because they would then be vulnerable to attack. I agree with her.

Second, I really think it is not a good idea to fear the Muslim Brotherhood here for several reasons. First, it is not right to automatically assume that everytime a country that is mostly Muslim becomes a democracy that the Muslim Brotherhood or Al Qaeda or some terrorist/jihadist group will take over. Second, supporting dictators actually helps radical Islamists. The Ayatollah and the current Iranian regime was born of a Stalinist Western-backed dictator who crushed all the other moderate forces and all that was left was the Islammists. The same thing was happening with Egypt. The only opposition party left after Mubarak suppressed everyone was the Islammic Brotherhood. Continued support of dictators, only increases the strength of radical Islammists.[/QUOTE]

[West Michigan]

FLOMAN, I can see your points and agree somewhat. I just wouldn't trust anyone from the Middle East until they proved themselves over time... regardless of what party etc. gains control. ;) IMO... bring all our military home and let them control our borders. Seems like it would be a wise way to spend our tax dollars. ;)

[W.E.B. Du Bois]

I don't apoligize for my crticism Obama.

I don't seek your apology for your criticism of Obama. My comments illustrate that your criticism of Obama is not founded on good reason or facts. It should be noted that you did not respond to my pointing out one of George W. Bush's national security advisers saying that Obama was showing restraint due to the ongoing evacuation of several hundred citizens from Libya.



Unfair or not (Bush got plenty) he had better be thick-skinned enough to take it.

OK, but your comment is unfair as demonstrated by the non-existence of a response to the comment from the Bush adviser.



He waited too long on the Iranian issue ,was milk toast on egypt and waited over a week to say a word on Lybia. Stronger words would go
a long way in region wrought with conflict.

Which again does not address the hundreds of Americans who were being evacuated from Libya at the time. Nor is the the criticism you made regarding Egypt or Iran fair, as not only was the outcome successful in Egypt, but Obama reacted faster to Mubarak than any of his predecessors (i.e. Reagan, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr.) and Obama was restrained by many other factors including the alliances the US has with other dictators, as well as the fact that Saudi Arabia offered to replace any aid to Egypt that the US cut off. Your Iran comment is also baseless since it does not take into account that the US backing those protesters would have only strengthened the hands of the mollahs since there is a great deal of anti-American sentiment in the country.



We have aregion in chaous and the only true democracy is in danger and for intents alone.


This comment appears to contradict the rest of what you said. Your own comments regarding what you would like to see happen are mixed, yet you demand a pure response from the President.



On the Muslum brotherhood ,have you seen or heard the some of their leaders.They are waiting for world chaous.You begin by economics ,cut supplies of essentials by making them too exspensive or unavailable.And justify bloody revolts as being for democracy and freedom but it is nothing of the sort they desire. Making Islam the dominant world religion is their goal. These are real radicals and you better fear them.I know Muslums that do. Sharia law and freedom cannot coexist and are only part of the problem.

Regardless of how bad they may be, that doesn't say anything about how much influence they have in each of these revolting countries. In Egypt, their strength is estimated at 10-20% of the population, which relegates them to the fringe. You've said that we should be wary of the Brotherhood in all the Muslim states, but you've not shown their presence in any of these states.



He is hovever inept as president.

Obama is competent and good as President. He has several achievements:


The health reform law
The financial regulations law
Cutting out banker middlemen who were making profit off of loans given to them from the government to give to students, now the loans go directly to the students
The START III nuclear reductions and inspections Treaty
He has funded alternative energy projects
The appointment of two left-leaning Supreme Court Justices who VOTED AGAINST nearly unlimited corporate spending in elections
For people whose main issue is taxation: federal taxes as a percentage of national income are lower now than they have been since the Truman administration


He's made some mistakes, but I don't know if there's a President who hasn't made some.

[FLOMAN]

Addressing restraint.I never advocated US military action in Lybia.Strong condemnation of Ghadafi is recommended though.(did not happen)
On acclomplishments of Obama.Quadrupling an already outrageous debt in 2 years is not accomplishment.Neither is forcing a healthcare monstosity that the majority is against.His new budget is proof he does not listen to any calling but his liberal ideals.Freezing spending at doubled 2010 budget is no cut. We are broke !And the president as they say is once again "kicking the can down the road" We cannot stretch the budget any further in action overseas.QUOTE=W.E.B. Du Bois;2842]I don't seek your apology for your criticism of Obama. My comments illustrate that your criticism of Obama is not founded on good reason or facts. It should be noted that you did not respond to my pointing out one of George W. Bush's national security advisers saying that Obama was showing restraint due to the ongoing evacuation of several hundred citizens from Libya.



OK, but your comment is unfair as demonstrated by the non-existence of a response to the comment from the Bush adviser.



Which again does not address the hundreds of Americans who were being evacuated from Libya at the time. Nor is the the criticism you made regarding Egypt or Iran fair, as not only was the outcome successful in Egypt, but Obama reacted faster to Mubarak than any of his predecessors (i.e. Reagan, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr.) and Obama was restrained by many other factors including the alliances the US has with other dictators, as well as the fact that Saudi Arabia offered to replace any aid to Egypt that the US cut off. Your Iran comment is also baseless since it does not take into account that the US backing those protesters would have only strengthened the hands of the mollahs since there is a great deal of anti-American sentiment in the country.



This comment appears to contradict the rest of what you said. Your own comments regarding what you would like to see happen are mixed, yet you demand a pure response from the President.



Regardless of how bad they may be, that doesn't say anything about how much influence they have in each of these revolting countries. In Egypt, their strength is estimated at 10-20% of the population, which relegates them to the fringe. You've said that we should be wary of the Brotherhood in all the Muslim states, but you've not shown their presence in any of these states.



Obama is competent and good as President. He has several achievements:


The health reform law
The financial regulations law
Cutting out banker middlemen who were making profit off of loans given to them from the government to give to students, now the loans go directly to the students
The START III nuclear reductions and inspections Treaty
He has funded alternative energy projects
The appointment of two left-leaning Supreme Court Justices who VOTED AGAINST nearly unlimited corporate spending in elections
For people whose main issue is taxation: federal taxes as a percentage of national income are lower now than they have been since the Truman administration


He's made some mistakes, but I don't know if there's a President who hasn't made some.[/QUOTE]

[FLOMAN]

I forgot to mention ,that the start treaty very much favors the Russians (research)
Spain has invested more more capita in green energy and has a 22% unemployment rate.The green programs are at this time job Killers
Want to see 5-6buck a gallon fuel and mass inflation? Bush removed drilling restrictions the last time Opec shot up prices.
Corporate spending in elections? well Obama is OWNED by the unions.What about restricting those contributions.He spoke up about
collective bargining in Wisconsin.Did you know federal employee unions have none .Carter passed that bill. Why do so many dems like taxes so much.Must be because 40 million of them don't actually pay any.
I have been an employer for decades .When my taxes climb it limits my ability to hire.
Mistakes? we will feel them for decades.