A Palestinian State

[Mike]

"Israelis must acknowledge that just as Israel's right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine's." -- President Barack ObamaMakes sense to ME.

[Locke9-05]

Yeah it makes sense to me too, but unlike most of the Arab nations around Israel, I don't see Israel denying anyone's right to exist. Their creed and holy books don't specifically call for the killing of another group based on race or religion.

[Mike]

I'm not taking sides here, but I'm trying to look at the matter objectively. Would Palestine's right to exist be tied to any of the lands that Israel currently claims? For example, Israel's insistence upon building in the West Bank seems like a tacit strategy to prevent a Palestinian Homeland, at lest in the eyes of some.

I don't own a copy of the Koran, and I can't think of what to refer to in terms of Israel's holy books other than the Old Testament as we in the United States know it. I'm aware of the non-Muslim interpretations and claims against Islam as a religion that espouses violence. Recalling my familiarity with the Old Testament it seems that Israel's history is replete with commands from God to eschew other races and religions, and to destroy other nations in order to maintain the House of Israel's purity ever since the Children of Israel left Egypt.

[Locke9-05]

I've seen the passages to which you're referring and yes, according to the men who wrote the Old Testament, God encouraged certain battles and wars of history for the children of Israel, but unlike the Qu'ran, I've never actually seen a passage in the Bible which instructs believers to kill certain groups of people or non-believers simply because they're non-believers.

[Voland]

The claim that all the Arabs are only bent on destroying Israel is a mantra by the Israeli right wing. Upon closer look there are things like the Arab peace Initiative of 2002 , when the member states of the Arab League led by Saudi Arabia and Egypt ( and supported by Iran !) offered Israel diplomatic recognition, peace treaties and steps towards normalisation in return for stopping settlement construction and allowing the foundation of a viable ( !) palestinian state. It was the israeli side that has not bothered to even officially answer to the initiative till the present day. The offer has been on the table for eight years and I have not yet heard a convincing argument why it was impossible not to take it as the base for negotiations. In case you are interested in negotiations......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

[Mike]

I've seen the passages to which you're referring and yes, according to the men who wrote the Old Testament, God encouraged certain battles and wars of history for the children of Israel, but unlike the Qu'ran, I've never actually seen a passage in the Bible which instructs believers to kill certain groups of people or non-believers simply because they're non-believers.I'm interested that you inserted "according to the men who wrote." How should I understand your intent with that--is it a disclaimer of sorts? Let's see if we can locate a passage or two from the Old Testament and a passage or two from the Koran to fit your criterion, i.e. an instruction to kill certain groups of people because they're non-believers, and let's report back to one another and compare.

[Locke9-05]

The claim that all the Arabs are only bent on destroying Israel is a mantra by the Israeli right wing. Upon closer look there are things like the Arab peace Initiative of 2002 , when the member states of the Arab League led by Saudi Arabia and Egypt ( and supported by Iran !) offered Israel diplomatic recognition, peace treaties and steps towards normalisation in return for stopping settlement construction and allowing the foundation of a viable ( !) palestinian state. It was the israeli side that has not bothered to even officially answer to the initiative till the present day. The offer has been on the table for eight years and I have not yet heard a convincing argument why it was impossible not to take it as the base for negotiations. In case you are interested in negotiations......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative
First of all, I never made any such claim. I simply claimed that the Qur'an is full of passages which instruct practicing Muslims to kill non-believers simply because they are non-believers. I'll be producing a source or two to that effect shortly. I realize that there are many peaceful Arabs and that they are not inherently violent, but the Holy Book of Islam, on the other hand, is. Whether or not they fully believe in it or do exactly what it tells them to do is a different story entirely.

[Locke9-05]

I'm interested that you inserted "according to the men who wrote." How should I understand your intent with that--is it a disclaimer of sorts? Let's see if we can locate a passage or two from the Old Testament and a passage or two from the Koran to fit your criterion, i.e. an instruction to kill certain groups of people because they're non-believers, and let's report back to one another and compare.You can call it whatever you'd like to call it. I was simply being truthful. The Bible is believed to be inspired by God and written by men. The Qur'an is believed to be written or dictated by Allah himself, passed down from the angel Jibrīl to Mohammed.

As for passages of violence in the Qur'an, that's not so tough.

Intolerance in the Quran (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html)


Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6

Treat converts to Islam well. (Kill those who refuse to convert. See 9:5) 9:11

I'll find more later.

[Mike]

You can call it whatever you'd like to call it. I was simply being truthful. The Bible is believed to be inspired by God and written by men.Don't misunderstand me. I only wanted to understand your point of view as best I can. There are many levels of interpretation of the Old Testament. Some people believe every word literally, others pick-and-choose between literal and allegorical, etc. That's why I asked.

[Mike]

Upon closer look there are things like the Arab peace Initiative of 2002 , when the member states of the Arab League led by Saudi Arabia and Egypt ( and supported by Iran !) offered Israel diplomatic recognition, peace treaties and steps towards normalisation in return for stopping settlement construction and allowing the foundation of a viable ( !) palestinian state. It was the israeli side that has not bothered to even officially answer to the initiative till the present day. The offer has been on the table for eight years and I have not yet heard a convincing argument why it was impossible not to take it as the base for negotiations. In case you are interested in negotiations......http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_InitiativeThat is pretty interesting. In your link it states the following.
Although a number of Israeli officials have responded to the Initiative with both support and criticism, the Israeli state is yet to formulate an official response.[4][5] Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert expressed reservations over the plan and invited Arab leaders to discuss them, but welcomed the initiative as a "new way of thinking, the willingness to recognize Israel as an established fact and to debate the conditions of the future solution, is a step that I can't help but appreciate."[6] In 2007, Benjamin Netanyahu, as opposition leader, as well as a number of Likud members, rejected the initiative outright.^ In 2009, President Shimon Peres expressed satisfaction at the "u-turn" in the attitudes of Arab states toward peace with Israel as reflected in the Saudi initiative, though he did qualify his comments by saying: "Israel wasn't a partner to the wording of this initiative. Therefore it doesn't have to agree to every word."^ The Palestinian Authority strongly supports the plan and Mahmoud Abbas officially asked President Barack Obama to adopt it as part of his Middle East policy.[7] Islamist political party Hamas, the elected government of the Gaza Strip, is deeply divided,[8] with most factions rejecting the plan.[1]
George Mitchell, the United States special envoy to the Middle East, announced in March 2009 that President Barack Obama's administration intends to "incorporate" the initiative into its Middle East policy.So, it perceive that there are some who look to initiatives such as this in a positive way, and others reject it. How interesting that the article claims Iran supported the initiative.

[Locke9-05]

Don't misunderstand me. I only wanted to understand your point of view as best I can. There are many levels of interpretation of the Old Testament. Some people believe every word literally, others pick-and-choose between literal and allegorical, etc. That's why I asked.Oh I wasn't being hostile, please forgive me if I came across as such. I agree that there are many interpretations of the Old Testament and I happen to be one of the people who pick and choose between literal and allegorical, etc. I am spiritual on an independent level, I don't specifically follow any one religion. My values come closest to that of a Christian, but I don't believe everything that Christianity teaches either.

[Mike]

I've never actually seen a passage in the Bible which instructs believers to kill certain groups of people or non-believers simply because they're non-believers.Here is one that seems to qualify.
12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
Deuteronomy 13:12-16
What's your analysis?

[Locke9-05]

Here is one that seems to qualify. What's your analysis?I can see that as Deuteronomy's instructions for violence against others, that point I will concede. I would have chosen Deuteronomy 13:6-9 to drive that point home, but 12-16 works as well, I suppose. It's the Old Testament, I guess, yes, and it is violent. Which is why I tend to look more at the New Testament for personal guidance.

[Mike]

I can see that as Deuteronomy's instructions for violence against others, that point I will concede. I would have chosen Deuteronomy 13:6-9 to drive that point home, but 12-16 works as well, I suppose. It's the Old Testament, I guess, yes, and it is violent. Which is why I tend to look more at the New Testament for personal guidance.Yes, I think I understand why you say that about the New Testament. In any event, using the Old Testament as evidence it would seem that Islam doesn't necessarily have a corner, historically speaking, on the market when it comes to commands from God to eschew other races and religions, and to destroy other nations in order to maintain whatever it is they think God wants them to maintain. Given that Judaism preceded Islam by something like a thousand years, some might wonder whether Islam's violent streak was inspired by that of the Children of Israel. Personally, I think it's better explained as a manifestation of human tendency in general.

[Voland]

First of all, I did not mean to imply you made such a claim. Secondly, I believe, the Quran as well as the Bible have to be viewed within their historic contexts. Especially the old testament is also full of bloody and violent stories about the Israelites wiping out Caananites f.e. and yet that is not the essence of the old testament. Just as the Quran also contains passages about tolerance and respect. The problematic part is selective quoting and interpretation.

[Voland]

Palestinian PM Salam Fayyad has confirmed that the Palestinians plan to declare statehood by August next year, and that the "roadmap" to that goal remains on track.
Mr. Fayyad, a former World Banker, has won respect not only for beeing one of the few palestinian leaders viewed as non-corrupt, but also for pushing through substantial reforms, kicking off an economic upturn in the West Bank, improving law and order and cracking down on terrorist organisations and infrastructure, and building a palestinian state from the bottom up. Fayyad has also recieved praise for cleaning palestinian schoolbooks off anti-jewish propaganda and introducing a book that for the first time tells the stories surrounding the foundation of Israel from BOTH perspectives. And that makes him suspicious for the israeli political right, since he puts Israel quietly under pressure to stick to its own promises :

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-pm-plan-to-declare-statehood-by-2011-remains-on-track-1.331324

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/why-salam-fayyad-is-israel-s-public-enemy-number-one-1.322552

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=174102

[Mike]

Palestinian PM Salam Fayyad has confirmed that the Palestinians plan to declare statehood by August next year, and that the "roadmap" to that goal remains on track.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-pm-plan-to-declare-statehood-by-2011-remains-on-track-1.331324

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/why-salam-fayyad-is-israel-s-public-enemy-number-one-1.322552

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=174102I note with interest the following
On Thursday, the U.S. House of Representatives unanimously approved a resolution opposing the unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state.

The resolution calls on the U.S. administration to "deny recognition to any unilaterally declared Palestinian state and veto any resolution by the United Nations Security Council to establish or recognize a Palestinian state outside of an agreement negotiated by the two parties."Interesting considering the text and the spirit of my country's unilateral Declation of Independence. I wonder what the Founders' would say.

[Voland]

I note with interest the following Interesting considering the text and the spirit of my country's unilateral Declation of Independence. I wonder what the Founders' would say.


Fayyads peaceful strategy has the potential to bring Israel more under pressure than ten intifadas ( should it insist to keep up settlement building and the occupation). The Palestinians bringing their own house in order, to fight corruption, crack down on terrorists, building a functioning infrastructure for their future state while at the same time stretching out the olive branch to Israel will make it harder and harder for the likes of Netanyahu to claim there is no partner for peace and to justify the ongoing occupation.
In autumn last year I was travelling in Israel and the West Bank as a member of a delegation that visited projects financed by the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg. It was my third visit in the territories and the progress was undeniable. In Jenin, West Bank, less than a decade ago notorious for bloody battles between israeli troops and palestinian fighters and the site of an alleged massacre ( by israeli soldiers shooting palestinian civilians) you could see entire israeli families shopping for groceries,hanging out in cafes, and going to the cinema ( cheaper than in Israel). The streets looked clean, the houses well-kept and not a single israeli soldier was visible, only palestinian policemen. Jenin and two neighbouring israeli communities were just building a joint sewage plant and the palestinian governor (a former intifada leader who spent more than ten years in israeli jails and a supporter of PM Fayyad) recieved the visits of two israeli mayors while we were there, without anybody considering that extraordinary or remarkable. At the same time the Palestinians were organising a boycott of israeli products made in settlements and of israeli companies investing in settlements or profiting from them and huge lists were visible everywhere, and that made settler organisations and business unions nervous enough to call on the israeli governement to "take action". Though I am not aware what that could have been.
Sometimes the reality on the ground looks remarkably different than the media picture and people on the ground are already way ahead of their political leaders. :) And Jenin and other examples also show the simple truth that the best strategy against terrorism is to make sure people have jobs and perspectives.

[Mike]

Sometimes the reality on the ground looks remarkably different than the media picture and people on the ground are already way ahead of their political leaders. :) And Jenin and other examples also show the simple truth that the best strategy against terrorism is to make sure people have jobs and perspectives.This makes sense when I consider that the job of the media and the nature of reporting is generally such that what is UNusual, sensational, attention-grabbing (most often in a bad way) is what the media reports. This fact has often lead me to wonder about truth in terms of the ratio of unsual events vs. the common seldom-reported events.

[Voland]

Israel is apparently getting nervous. The governement in Jerusalem has ordered its diplomatic staff abroad to make all efforts possible to persuade or pressure governements NOT to recognize a palestinian state except after a final agreement with Israel. In Europe ( whose rejection of a unilateral declaration of a palestinian state is not categorically but explicitly temporary) , France and Spain have drawn the ire of the Israelis for upgrading the PA´s diplomatic status, a move that Germany and other countries are expected to follow in the coming days.....

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/jerusalem-scrambles-as-european-states-move-to-upgrade-ties-with-palestinians-1.331706

[Voland]

Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay seem to be preparing the recognition of a palestinian state in the 1967 borders as well ( joining Bolivia, Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela and Ecuador), a move that the US and Israel have slammed already in strong terms. Chilean President Sebastian Pinera even plans a state visit to Palestine and Ecuador has announced the opening of a full-scale palestinian embassy :

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-fm-chile-paraguay-to-recognize-palestinian-state-in-coming-weeks-1.334829

[Locke9-05]

With all due respect, your living in a dream world mate. Israelis have set out to cleanse palestine/israel of arabs for the last 62 years. U.S Israel control of middle east is all that's on the agenda and we all know it. Stop kidding yourself.With all due respect, read the forum rules. Please do not address members or moderation in such a condescending manner. If you have something wrong with the substance of someone's post, address the substance of their post, do not insult them personally with remarks like "you're living in a dream world" or "stop kidding yourself."

Here are the forum rules: http://politicalforum.net/showthread.php?3-Forum-Rules

Please become familiarized with them if you wish to be a part of this community for any period of time.


JL95

[W.E.B. Du Bois]

Forum violations dumped (http://politicalforum.net/showthread.php?445-quot-Your-living-in-a-dream-world-quot).

[Centurion]

I do think the Arabs have a right to their own country in what was once Judea. To me, Palestine is a made up name. The Arabs living there are no more Palestinians than the Jews who also lived there. That said, once the Arabs stop their constant bombing, then Israel will stop bombing. The issue of settlelments is a hotly contested one with no clear solution in sight.

Expect that region to be a constant tinderbox.

[Voland]

I do think the Arabs have a right to their own country in what was once Judea. To me, Palestine is a made up name. The Arabs living there are no more Palestinians than the Jews who also lived there. That said, once the Arabs stop their constant bombing, then Israel will stop bombing. The issue of settlelments is a hotly contested one with no clear solution in sight.

Expect that region to be a constant tinderbox.


The "constant bombing" was an issue about a decade ago, as long as you´re talking about the West Bank. And if the Hamas missiles were a threat serious enough for Israel to justify bombing Gaza to rubble might also be argued.
And while I am not defending unquestionable atrocities like bombing of civilian targets armed resistance is what you get when you keep millions of people under occupation for decades and confiscate larger and larger pieces of their land to populate it with your own settlements. Israel has too long been asleep at the wheel regarding political options to bring about a solution, like the arab peace initiative.
The palestinian plan, led by PM Fayyad and president Abbas now seems to be to firstly gain respect by building functioning civic institutions and a functioning economy ( as much as possible under occupation) while at the same time cracking down on terrorists and by that press Israel into a corner where they either have to show flag as only paying lip services to the establishment of a palestinian state or by moving themselves to finally fulfill obligations Israel has subscribed to itself in a number of international treaties since Oslo.
About the arab peace initiative and the Palestinians building their state from the bottom up and also according to israeli sources "dramatically" improving security you find a number of links in earlier posts on this thread. The side that has not changed its positions and is lacking a coherent strategy is Israel, and that is why Netanyahu is caught with his pants down and essentially powerless by the wave of international recognitions of Palestine in the absence of a peace deal.
After most of Latin America, Russia has recognized Palestine in the 1967 borders and Spain seems to be the first EU country to follow soon ( which means recognition by the entire EU will be a question of time). Also a number of caribean states appear to be ready for the move that may not matter much politically but still have voting rights in the UN general assembly. This development will make it increasingly difficult for Israel to justify the occupation and especially the land grab for settlements in territories recognized by an increasing number of countries as palestinian :

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/who-will-be-the-next-to-recognize-an-independent-palestinian-state-1.337834

[Echo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=v3eqQyVe0wc